Why is Fiora "bad".

RiotNomeGame Designer
11 Aug 2012

MS Quints, ArPen/Armor/MR.
21/9/0 or 21/0/9 (MS focus).

Boots/3Pot go mid. W/Q/Q/E/Q/R/Q/W/etc. Start Q harassing at level 2. For items...
1. If you are ahead: Brutalizer > Merc Treads > Black Cleaver > IE.
2. If you are behind: 2x Doran > Merc Treads > IE > LW.
3. If you do not respect your opponents: Brutalizer > Ionian Boots > Black Cleaver > IE.

Tactics to win trades:
1. If you are far from your target or he wants to play safe: Q on minion, Q on opponent, hit W and E, auto a few times and run back.
2. If you are close to your target and are not afraid: Q on champ, hit W and E, auto a few times, Q again and run back. You win trade.
3. If you are afraid of your target but want to get some poke in: Q on champ, hit W, auto, Q back to minion.
4. If you want to get killz: Q on target, R, Q to finish.

It's good to probe your opponent early on to understand his skill level. You know you can pull off stupid plays if your opponent ever:
1. Flashes during your ult.
2. Steps into dual-Q range while he's low.

In team fights, their AD will be afraid of you and stay far back. Try to get to him by Q'ing to an opponent in front of him, then Q'ing to him. Try to isolate him before using your ult.

Avoid Diana, Gragas, and Zyra mid. Ryze can also be problematic if he doesn't go Tear first. Easy targets are Twisted Fate, Morg, Vladimir, or any other squishy AP without a guaranteed disable.

Source: 18-3 ranked Fiora, 1700 elo, 10 kills/game on average. Also the 2000+ elo dude that sits next to me at work.


RiotNomeGame Designer
11 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTobiothan View Post
found a huge flaw here, first, going mid as fiora in anything lower then 1700 is an instant loss because your team will troll the ever living christ out of you for troll picking. Second, xin still does it better.

Edit: also you cant qrq the animation for R is longer then the timer on the second Q (5 hits 1 hit per second, 4 seconds on second Q) if your pulling this off your league is glitched.
You can, try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vlad? You sure about that?

The counter to Fiora mid is actually not any mid pick in particular. It's the jungler camping you all day.

Obviously an AP with escape or CC that is ranged can play much safer than you.

Melee mid can work, but Fiora is one of the worst choices for it. Little sustain, nearly no escape.

Irelia/Warwick/Xin much more effective than her against casters and junglers.

There was a big thread on this a while ago with someone streaming games around this elo-- if you pay close attention, you'll note that the jungler activity is the determiner of the lane.

Which is basically the case for almost all melee mid, and one reason it isn't used regularly or competitively.
Fiora is fine mid. You just have to play aggressive. If you go MS quints, it's more than enough to escape most ganks when used in combination with E. Jungle ganks go both ways, and chances are, the lane will be pushed towards you most of the time anyway. Fiora doesn't need sustain post 3Pot vs. most casters because she out-trades them.

And yes, Fiora destroys Vlad. She transitions well into teamfights because she spends the entire game hunting AP mid and ADC. By the time teamfights roll around, she can just double Q into their ADC and instantly take him down, then snowball from there.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
If you're "playing aggressive", how is it that the lane is not only pushing in your favor (which doesn't happen if you zone the AP), and still remaining safe enough to movespeed away from a Redbuff Udyr/Shaco/Nocturne.

It just doesn't work that way.

Fiora must endager herself to "trade", and the jungler takes advantage of that.

Pretty much the only way Fiora comes out of midlane with kills is an inexperienced AP and/or little enemy jungle presence compared to ally jungle presence.

I am fully aware of the playstyle you're advocating, one that most fans of Fiora advocate, and I'd recommend you try it 50+ games in soloque (not duo) and pay attention to the jungler.

This "aggressive" no-escapes melee mid is a diceroll against the skill of the enemy jungle, which results in utter inconsistency and leads to lack of competitive and widespread play.

Edit: Perhaps another clean example-- play against Dyrus Vlad as Fiora. Better, get a Master of Fiora to play against a Dyrus Vlad. See how the lane goes.
The OP was specifically talking about normals and lower elo games. Also, I don't duo with anyone on my main right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness4910 View Post
Why ArmPen reds? I'm curious, because I can not decide between AD runes and ArmPen runes on ANY champion. I need advice =(
Fiora gets AD from her W. Armor Pen is better for the late game, and like most assassins, falls off late game. What makes Fiora special is that she can transition to a melee carry role with her E. Combined with a Brutalizer it also crushes most mids.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
If you're "playing aggressive", how is it that the lane is not only pushing in your favor (which doesn't happen if you zone the AP), and still remaining safe enough to movespeed away from a Redbuff Udyr/Shaco/Nocturne.

It just doesn't work that way.

Fiora must endager herself to "trade", and the jungler takes advantage of that.

Pretty much the only way Fiora comes out of midlane with kills is an inexperienced AP and/or little enemy jungle presence compared to ally jungle presence.

I am fully aware of the playstyle you're advocating, one that most fans of Fiora advocate, and I'd recommend you try it 50+ games in soloque (not duo) and pay attention to the jungler.

This "aggressive" no-escapes melee mid is a diceroll against the skill of the enemy jungle, which results in utter inconsistency and leads to lack of competitive and widespread play.

Edit: Perhaps another clean example-- play against Dyrus Vlad as Fiora. Better, get a Master of Fiora to play against a Dyrus Vlad. See how the lane goes.
The OP was specifically talking about normals and lower elo games. Also, I don't duo with anyone on my main right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness4910 View Post
Why ArmPen reds? I'm curious, because I can not decide between AD runes and ArmPen runes on ANY champion. I need advice =(
Fiora gets AD from her W. Armor Pen is better for the late game, and like most assassins, falls off late game. What makes Fiora special is that she can transition to a melee carry role with her E. Combined with a Brutalizer it also crushes most mids.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
The central thing with Fiora that I am pointing out is the inconsistency of the lane, correlated against the jungle activity.

It's an expectations note-- if he goes in to a normal game expecting to do well, and the jungler sits on him, it's going to be a pretty bad experience.

You've got to provide the good and the bad, not only in advice to players, but in consideration of the champion's design.
Good point.

Every champion is going to have a poor experience if a jungler camps him though. It's not unique to Fiora in any way. And being aggressive doesn't mean you have to zone; it means that whenever you feel like it, a Q/auto/Q combo will do 30-40% of your opponent's health. The trick is to figure out the best time to do it. If anything, she has better chances of getting away from junglers than most mids due to W and E.

Issues with Fiora:
1. She falls off late game IF you don't have items.
2. She is susceptible to lane swaps.
3. She NEEDS to gank constantly.
4. She can't do anything if they have a tanky team.
5. She forces an unorthodox AP top.

Strengths:
1. Whoops on most AP mids.
2. In non-Blind Pick, makes them think you're going top.
3. Free kills on AD carry every fight.
4. Lets your top or jungler get Blue.
5. Forces your opponent to stack armor (NP since you'll have lots of Pen).


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
The central thing with Fiora that I am pointing out is the inconsistency of the lane, correlated against the jungle activity.

It's an expectations note-- if he goes in to a normal game expecting to do well, and the jungler sits on him, it's going to be a pretty bad experience.

You've got to provide the good and the bad, not only in advice to players, but in consideration of the champion's design.
Good point.

Every champion is going to have a poor experience if a jungler camps him though. It's not unique to Fiora in any way. And being aggressive doesn't mean you have to zone; it means that whenever you feel like it, a Q/auto/Q combo will do 30-40% of your opponent's health. The trick is to figure out the best time to do it. If anything, she has better chances of getting away from junglers than most mids due to W and E.

Issues with Fiora:
1. She falls off late game IF you don't have items.
2. She is susceptible to lane swaps.
3. She NEEDS to gank constantly.
4. She can't do anything if they have a tanky team.
5. She forces an unorthodox AP top.

Strengths:
1. Whoops on most AP mids.
2. In non-Blind Pick, makes them think you're going top.
3. Free kills on AD carry every fight.
4. Lets your top or jungler get Blue.
5. Forces your opponent to stack armor (NP since you'll have lots of Pen).


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
There's a bit of rose-colored glasses here:

I have a great time if the jungler camps me as Morgana-- he's wasting his time, and that is entertaining.

The AD carry isn't a "free kill" unless they have no CC and you're really far ahead.
Support Alistar/Janna, even Soraka wrecks this move.

E requires an autoattack for movespeed, W doesn't block on-hit effects. So I'm not really sure how you're seeing them as escapes.
If you hit the jungler, the jungler hits you, and applys a slow.

A skilled AP is going to just farm and wait for ganks, using a range plus CC advantage.

These illustrate some of the core troubles with Fiora: Extreme Inconsistency.

You are relying on your opponents being unaware of the playstyle used to counter melee burst.
(And not on your own skill-- you as Fiora are only ever doing one combo, with near-universally applicable counters.)
Yes, there are dependencies. There are dependencies with every champion. But in my own practical experience, shes works well enough that I can depend on her for a win.

E helps you escape because the only time you'll ever be in gank range is when you're harassing with Q, and since you'll have E activated when they come in, getting away is pretty simple. Fiora ganks the ADC very well because she's one of the few mids who can reliably tower dive and get away.

Just try it out. She's become my favorite mid for the consistency that I've been able to play her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimyd View Post
Inherent flaw. You have to be 4th/5th pick to be have Fiora pick as a counter. Goodluck having that happen in ranked.

Any competent mid will farm near tower or just flash bait her into their jungler/tower. And a decent mid that got counterpicked will try to laneswitch or just have their Jungler camp you.

The only reliable way is to Jungler her, but you won't get farmed w/o kills like Master Yi, since Fiora is Master Yi 2.0 same rules apply.
I don't pick Fiora as a counter. I pick Fiora, and THEY try to counter her top rather than mid. Then they get a nasty surprise. Post-6, every time I get "baited" by jungler I either make it out alive or get a kill before I die. The trick is to perform advantageous trades until you can get a kill: just Q/W/auto/Q-escape repeatedly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aFineWayToDie View Post
I can defintely she how she would have an advantage over some of those champions, but I'm kind of skeptical about her beating Olaf or Vlad. I think she might win early, but Vlad can just pool her ult if he's smart. Against Olaf, I just don't see her being able to sustain against his true damage whereas if Olaf builds Wriggles and Ninja Tabi I can't see Fiora being able to out trade him.

That said, I have pretty limited experience with Fiora, so maybe I'm clueless. I play Pantheon mostly, and the few times I've laned against a Fiora I found it to be a fairly easy lane.
Vlad is an easy target for Fiora mainly because her burst is too much for Vlad. If she allows herself to be harassed, it's over for her. But if she Q/W/E-auto/Q, she's already done more than 50% of Vlad's health. At this point, Vlad can either run or pool. If he pools, she just follows and ults right after. If he doesn't pool, he won't win the resulting trade. It's very similar to Vlad vs. Talon... if he pools at any point, he's only adding to the opponent's burst.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
There's a bit of rose-colored glasses here:

I have a great time if the jungler camps me as Morgana-- he's wasting his time, and that is entertaining.

The AD carry isn't a "free kill" unless they have no CC and you're really far ahead.
Support Alistar/Janna, even Soraka wrecks this move.

E requires an autoattack for movespeed, W doesn't block on-hit effects. So I'm not really sure how you're seeing them as escapes.
If you hit the jungler, the jungler hits you, and applys a slow.

A skilled AP is going to just farm and wait for ganks, using a range plus CC advantage.

These illustrate some of the core troubles with Fiora: Extreme Inconsistency.

You are relying on your opponents being unaware of the playstyle used to counter melee burst.
(And not on your own skill-- you as Fiora are only ever doing one combo, with near-universally applicable counters.)
Yes, there are dependencies. There are dependencies with every champion. But in my own practical experience, shes works well enough that I can depend on her for a win.

E helps you escape because the only time you'll ever be in gank range is when you're harassing with Q, and since you'll have E activated when they come in, getting away is pretty simple. Fiora ganks the ADC very well because she's one of the few mids who can reliably tower dive and get away.

Just try it out. She's become my favorite mid for the consistency that I've been able to play her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimyd View Post
Inherent flaw. You have to be 4th/5th pick to be have Fiora pick as a counter. Goodluck having that happen in ranked.

Any competent mid will farm near tower or just flash bait her into their jungler/tower. And a decent mid that got counterpicked will try to laneswitch or just have their Jungler camp you.

The only reliable way is to Jungler her, but you won't get farmed w/o kills like Master Yi, since Fiora is Master Yi 2.0 same rules apply.
I don't pick Fiora as a counter. I pick Fiora, and THEY try to counter her top rather than mid. Then they get a nasty surprise. Post-6, every time I get "baited" by jungler I either make it out alive or get a kill before I die. The trick is to perform advantageous trades until you can get a kill: just Q/W/auto/Q-escape repeatedly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aFineWayToDie View Post
I can defintely she how she would have an advantage over some of those champions, but I'm kind of skeptical about her beating Olaf or Vlad. I think she might win early, but Vlad can just pool her ult if he's smart. Against Olaf, I just don't see her being able to sustain against his true damage whereas if Olaf builds Wriggles and Ninja Tabi I can't see Fiora being able to out trade him.

That said, I have pretty limited experience with Fiora, so maybe I'm clueless. I play Pantheon mostly, and the few times I've laned against a Fiora I found it to be a fairly easy lane.
Vlad is an easy target for Fiora mainly because her burst is too much for Vlad. If she allows herself to be harassed, it's over for her. But if she Q/W/E-auto/Q, she's already done more than 50% of Vlad's health. At this point, Vlad can either run or pool. If he pools, she just follows and ults right after. If he doesn't pool, he won't win the resulting trade. It's very similar to Vlad vs. Talon... if he pools at any point, he's only adding to the opponent's burst.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vlad pools when she begins her ultimate.

Otherwise he farms.

I have played Fiora. I have observed other people playing Fiora.

And I can say that you have not done so nearly enough.

If your Vlads are pooling before you ult, it's not Fiora that's winning you the game.
I already addressed this. Vlad cannot trade with Fiora before, after, or during her ult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wei Swagg View Post
I think Talon is a better antimage than Fiora.

Also someone sits next to Jatt.
Talon falls off more than Fiora though. Also, Jatt sits behind me.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulldozer5 View Post
add kennen to that list of players to avoid
I've beaten every Kennen I've played against with Fiora, both top and mid. His autoattack is extremely slow, which means you can deflect him any time he tries to one-off harass early on. He'll never hit you with his skillshot because you'll be behind the minion line most of the time. You can Q>auto>Q to bait out his crack ball, then when he comes back you and your jungler kill. If he tries to ult you, just ult him... his will be wasted. The key to Fiora is imposing your will at level 3. That's your "apex" of damage over most AP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
As one might guess, AP casters are usually ranged, and can clear waves (kill creeps) pretty easily.

Sure she can Flash-Q into the enemy tower range, that's a great way to harass enemies, and herself.

She might even make Vlad pool her ult with an aggressive Flash, then his pool will be down for a few seconds.

A lot of people who haven't really played or examined these matchups much have this idealized conception of a champion.

The counter to Aggressive Gapclose Melee, which Fiora is only one of many, is staying out of the gapclose range.

Shocking, right?

Remember when Jax would destroy half your health with W->Q?

WHAT DOES ONE DO?!

Stay out of Q range, farm tower, gank him.
One does not simply stay out of Q range. Whenever an AP plays defensively like that, they're already losing the lane--they're not getting the farm they need to get. And if I see someone do that, I'll purposefully back off once in a while. If they come up to the minion line, I just chain QQ from a minion to him, then W/E auto into R.

And as others have pointed out, Fiora can easily kill Vlad with or without her ult. I've played the Kennen vs. Vlad matchup many times. Vlad, Twisted Fate, and Morgana are the three "give-mes" of a mid Fiora. The only dangers from these champs come from them being able to farm even when behind (but that's a danger inherent to them, not vs. the Fiora matchup in particular).


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulldozer5 View Post
add kennen to that list of players to avoid
I've beaten every Kennen I've played against with Fiora, both top and mid. His autoattack is extremely slow, which means you can deflect him any time he tries to one-off harass early on. He'll never hit you with his skillshot because you'll be behind the minion line most of the time. You can Q>auto>Q to bait out his crack ball, then when he comes back you and your jungler kill. If he tries to ult you, just ult him... his will be wasted. The key to Fiora is imposing your will at level 3. That's your "apex" of damage over most AP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
As one might guess, AP casters are usually ranged, and can clear waves (kill creeps) pretty easily.

Sure she can Flash-Q into the enemy tower range, that's a great way to harass enemies, and herself.

She might even make Vlad pool her ult with an aggressive Flash, then his pool will be down for a few seconds.

A lot of people who haven't really played or examined these matchups much have this idealized conception of a champion.

The counter to Aggressive Gapclose Melee, which Fiora is only one of many, is staying out of the gapclose range.

Shocking, right?

Remember when Jax would destroy half your health with W->Q?

WHAT DOES ONE DO?!

Stay out of Q range, farm tower, gank him.
One does not simply stay out of Q range. Whenever an AP plays defensively like that, they're already losing the lane--they're not getting the farm they need to get. And if I see someone do that, I'll purposefully back off once in a while. If they come up to the minion line, I just chain QQ from a minion to him, then W/E auto into R.

And as others have pointed out, Fiora can easily kill Vlad with or without her ult. I've played the Kennen vs. Vlad matchup many times. Vlad, Twisted Fate, and Morgana are the three "give-mes" of a mid Fiora. The only dangers from these champs come from them being able to farm even when behind (but that's a danger inherent to them, not vs. the Fiora matchup in particular).


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeJunkie View Post
Since you're here, do you have any advice to post on Evelynn toplane? (Perhaps a guide floating around?) I enjoy her there a lot and wouldn't mind some pointers/tips

This probably isn't the thread for that to be addressed in.
I don't play her any differently than I used to. See this thread:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...86207#25586207

Her peak is lower than it used to be though.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeJunkie View Post
Since you're here, do you have any advice to post on Evelynn toplane? (Perhaps a guide floating around?) I enjoy her there a lot and wouldn't mind some pointers/tips

This probably isn't the thread for that to be addressed in.
I don't play her any differently than I used to. See this thread:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...86207#25586207

Her peak is lower than it used to be though.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Firstly, APs scale into midgame in huge portion on exp alone.

Secondly, you can't stop him from farming the tower.

Thirdly, Fiora cannot directly dive towers at low level, especially against Vlad.

You've legitimately not played this matchup in any large amount.

I fully encourage proponents of this strategy to actually play Fiora exclusively in ranked, and take note of what actions the enemy AP and jungler take, and what happens to your elo.

That's the running theme I see between people advocating Fiora mid-- they've played a few games with her, killed a few squishies, but haven't actually sat down to play her consistently.
(And thereby fully understand the dynamics that contribute to victory and defeat for her. They just see the damage.)
Feel free to add me if you want to test your Vlad against my Fiora >.>

I never said Fiora was a catch-all mid champ. Challenging anyone to play Fiora exclusively doesn't prove anything. What we're saying is that Fiora is a strong conditional mid.

But here is the full list of champs I've played Fiora against. I've denoted whether I won the lane or not (not the game though; I still managed to win the game even after most lane losses since I tend to gank bot a lot). I'm fairly certain that most players that understand the basics of Fiora play can replicate the victories.
1. Vladimir: win
2. Morg: win
3. Twisted Fate: win
4. Gragas: loss (Body Slam destroys Fiora)
5. Mordekaiser: loss (can't go near minions)
6. Brand: win
7. Diana: loss (win until he gets two Dorans and outbursts you with shorter cooldowns)
8. Fizz: win
9. Kennen: win
10. Kassadin: win
11. Zyra: loss (getting hit by E leads to death wombo combo)
12. Orianna: win
13. Veigar: win
14. Ryze: win (played vs Ryze twice and won twice; but I could see a good Ryze player winning consistently vs Fiora)
15. Karthus: win


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
What's basically happening is that:

Fiora is observed to be unpopular by Riot.
Riot plays some games with her, does well, says she's fine.

Same thing happened with Viktor-- according to Morello, 'Jatt was owning with him', and that he's 'sleeper OP'.

Some real investigation happens, and guess what, he's under remake.

Unless you really observe the nuances of what's happening in the lane across a multitude of games, you'll tend to be prone to taking your first impression of the champion.

There's a reason she's unpopular, and a further reason she doesn't have an astronomical winrate 100% tourney-worthy counter to AP mid GG.

When you examine that in the mid lane matchups, it comes down to:
1. Vulnerable to jungler, especially if enemy is being zoned or playing passive.
2. Inability to harass enemy under tower.

So if you study a bunch of Fiora games, lane wins and losses, a pattern emerges:
1. If enemy avoids Q range, farms tower, and receives ganks, lane loss at 90%.
2. If enemy enters Q range multiple times, receives no ganks, lane win at 80%.

Those two are independent of the actions of Fiora.
You assume "Riot" is a single entity that thinks alike. How much, and how well, I play Fiora is independent of what live team does with her, especially as there are much better Fiora players who have their own opinions of her balance. And nowhere did I say she's competitive-viable. That's outside the scope of my judgment. I said that in my own experience, playing from 1500-1700 elo, she's been consistently strong against most mids, and gave the OP my tips for playing her.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

MS Quints, ArPen/Armor/MR.
21/9/0 or 21/0/9 (MS focus).

Boots/3Pot go mid. W/Q/Q/E/Q/R/Q/W/etc. Start Q harassing at level 2. For items...
1. If you are ahead: Brutalizer > Merc Treads > Black Cleaver > IE.
2. If you are behind: 2x Doran > Merc Treads > IE > LW.
3. If you do not respect your opponents: Brutalizer > Ionian Boots > Black Cleaver > IE.

Tactics to win trades:
1. If you are far from your target or he wants to play safe: Q on minion, Q on opponent, hit W and E, auto a few times and run back.
2. If you are close to your target and are not afraid: Q on champ, hit W and E, auto a few times, Q again and run back. You win trade.
3. If you are afraid of your target but want to get some poke in: Q on champ, hit W, auto, Q back to minion.
4. If you want to get killz: Q on target, R, Q to finish.

It's good to probe your opponent early on to understand his skill level. You know you can pull off stupid plays if your opponent ever:
1. Flashes during your ult.
2. Steps into dual-Q range while he's low.

In team fights, their AD will be afraid of you and stay far back. Try to get to him by Q'ing to an opponent in front of him, then Q'ing to him. Try to isolate him before using your ult.

Avoid Diana, Gragas, and Zyra mid. Ryze can also be problematic if he doesn't go Tear first. Easy targets are Twisted Fate, Morg, Vladimir, or any other squishy AP without a guaranteed disable.

Source: 18-3 ranked Fiora, 1700 elo, 10 kills/game on average. Also the 2000+ elo dude that sits next to me at work.


RiotNomeGame Designer
12 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTobiothan View Post
found a huge flaw here, first, going mid as fiora in anything lower then 1700 is an instant loss because your team will troll the ever living christ out of you for troll picking. Second, xin still does it better.

Edit: also you cant qrq the animation for R is longer then the timer on the second Q (5 hits 1 hit per second, 4 seconds on second Q) if your pulling this off your league is glitched.
You can, try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vlad? You sure about that?

The counter to Fiora mid is actually not any mid pick in particular. It's the jungler camping you all day.

Obviously an AP with escape or CC that is ranged can play much safer than you.

Melee mid can work, but Fiora is one of the worst choices for it. Little sustain, nearly no escape.

Irelia/Warwick/Xin much more effective than her against casters and junglers.

There was a big thread on this a while ago with someone streaming games around this elo-- if you pay close attention, you'll note that the jungler activity is the determiner of the lane.

Which is basically the case for almost all melee mid, and one reason it isn't used regularly or competitively.
Fiora is fine mid. You just have to play aggressive. If you go MS quints, it's more than enough to escape most ganks when used in combination with E. Jungle ganks go both ways, and chances are, the lane will be pushed towards you most of the time anyway. Fiora doesn't need sustain post 3Pot vs. most casters because she out-trades them.

And yes, Fiora destroys Vlad. She transitions well into teamfights because she spends the entire game hunting AP mid and ADC. By the time teamfights roll around, she can just double Q into their ADC and instantly take him down, then snowball from there.


RiotNomeGame Designer
13 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vlad pools when she begins her ultimate.

Otherwise he farms.

I have played Fiora. I have observed other people playing Fiora.

And I can say that you have not done so nearly enough.

If your Vlads are pooling before you ult, it's not Fiora that's winning you the game.
I already addressed this. Vlad cannot trade with Fiora before, after, or during her ult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wei Swagg View Post
I think Talon is a better antimage than Fiora.

Also someone sits next to Jatt.
Talon falls off more than Fiora though. Also, Jatt sits behind me.


RiotNomeGame Designer
13 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Firstly, APs scale into midgame in huge portion on exp alone.

Secondly, you can't stop him from farming the tower.

Thirdly, Fiora cannot directly dive towers at low level, especially against Vlad.

You've legitimately not played this matchup in any large amount.

I fully encourage proponents of this strategy to actually play Fiora exclusively in ranked, and take note of what actions the enemy AP and jungler take, and what happens to your elo.

That's the running theme I see between people advocating Fiora mid-- they've played a few games with her, killed a few squishies, but haven't actually sat down to play her consistently.
(And thereby fully understand the dynamics that contribute to victory and defeat for her. They just see the damage.)
Feel free to add me if you want to test your Vlad against my Fiora >.>

I never said Fiora was a catch-all mid champ. Challenging anyone to play Fiora exclusively doesn't prove anything. What we're saying is that Fiora is a strong conditional mid.

But here is the full list of champs I've played Fiora against. I've denoted whether I won the lane or not (not the game though; I still managed to win the game even after most lane losses since I tend to gank bot a lot). I'm fairly certain that most players that understand the basics of Fiora play can replicate the victories.
1. Vladimir: win
2. Morg: win
3. Twisted Fate: win
4. Gragas: loss (Body Slam destroys Fiora)
5. Mordekaiser: loss (can't go near minions)
6. Brand: win
7. Diana: loss (win until he gets two Dorans and outbursts you with shorter cooldowns)
8. Fizz: win
9. Kennen: win
10. Kassadin: win
11. Zyra: loss (getting hit by E leads to death wombo combo)
12. Orianna: win
13. Veigar: win
14. Ryze: win (played vs Ryze twice and won twice; but I could see a good Ryze player winning consistently vs Fiora)
15. Karthus: win


RiotNomeGame Designer
13 Aug 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
What's basically happening is that:

Fiora is observed to be unpopular by Riot.
Riot plays some games with her, does well, says she's fine.

Same thing happened with Viktor-- according to Morello, 'Jatt was owning with him', and that he's 'sleeper OP'.

Some real investigation happens, and guess what, he's under remake.

Unless you really observe the nuances of what's happening in the lane across a multitude of games, you'll tend to be prone to taking your first impression of the champion.

There's a reason she's unpopular, and a further reason she doesn't have an astronomical winrate 100% tourney-worthy counter to AP mid GG.

When you examine that in the mid lane matchups, it comes down to:
1. Vulnerable to jungler, especially if enemy is being zoned or playing passive.
2. Inability to harass enemy under tower.

So if you study a bunch of Fiora games, lane wins and losses, a pattern emerges:
1. If enemy avoids Q range, farms tower, and receives ganks, lane loss at 90%.
2. If enemy enters Q range multiple times, receives no ganks, lane win at 80%.

Those two are independent of the actions of Fiora.
You assume "Riot" is a single entity that thinks alike. How much, and how well, I play Fiora is independent of what live team does with her, especially as there are much better Fiora players who have their own opinions of her balance. And nowhere did I say she's competitive-viable. That's outside the scope of my judgment. I said that in my own experience, playing from 1500-1700 elo, she's been consistently strong against most mids, and gave the OP my tips for playing her.